Let’s talk about summer camp! Specifically non-diabetes sleepaway camp. We have a great roundtable to tackle a subject that can seem pretty scary but Stacey thinks is one of the best things she’s ever done for her son.
Joining Stacey are Shelby Hughes who live with type 1 and has sent her daughter with T1D to diabetes camp and regular camp, and April Blackwell, an adult with type 1. April went to Space Camp as a kid – no surprise if you remember our previous episode with her. April works in Mission Control at NASA.
This podcast is not intended as medical advice. If you have those kinds of questions, please contact your health care provider.
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Episode Transcription (beta)
Stacey Simms 0:00
Diabetes Connections is brought to you by Dario health. Manage your blood glucose levels increase your possibilities by Gvoke Hypopen the first premixed auto injector for very low blood sugar, and by Dexcom help make knowledge your superpower with the Dexcom G6 CGM system.
This is Diabetes Connections with Stacey Simms.
Stacey Simms 0:29
This week, let’s talk about summer camp specifically non diabetes. sleepaway camp, we have a great round table to tackle a subject that can seem pretty scary, but it’s honestly one of the best things I’ve ever done for my son. And my guests who went themselves agree.
April Blackwell 0:46
It sort of put that independence on me to you know, take care and manage my diabetes on my own. And I think that was a big step for me personally, just because I wanted to be like everyone else and have sleep overs and go to camp and stuff. So it was a big motivator for me.
Stacey Simms 1:02
That is April Blackwell, an adult who lives with type one talking about her summer camp experience. You’ll also hear from Shelby Hughes. She lives with type one and sent her daughter with T1D to diabetes camp and regular camp. Plus, you’ll hear from me, I’ve sent Benny to month long, regular sleepaway camp for many years. This podcast is not intended as medical advice. If you have those kinds of questions, please contact your health care provider.
Welcome to another week of the show. I am so glad to have you along. I am always excited to have you here. But I this is one of my favorite topics. I love talking about camp. I think camp is so important for kids and for parents. If you’re a longtime listener, you know that if you’re new, Hi, I’m your host, Stacey Simms, and we aim to educate and inspire about diabetes with a focus on people who use insulin. So what’s the big deal about camp, I really feel that going away from your parents, even if it’s just for a couple of nights. And usually it’s for at least a week, that’s what we’re going to focus on here is week long or longer camp programs, gives kids a gift, a gift of independence of confidence, a little bit of responsibility, diabetes or not. You learn who you are, when you’re not with your home friends, your school friends and your family. You can try different things you can you know, invent different personalities, you can give yourself a nickname, I went to camp with a kid who had a completely different name at camp.
And it’s a huge tradition in my family, I went to the same summer camp for a little while as my dad, if that gives you any indication, my kids didn’t go there. Because we we moved that was a northeast thing. And my kids are both gone to camp, of course in the southeast where we live. But I’m such a proponent of camp. And the flip side of that is, it’s so great for the parents, because you have to know who you are when your kids aren’t around. I know that seems weird, especially for diabetes moms and some dads. But we get so caught up in our kids, that when you are able to turn the Dexcom share off for a week or longer. It’s liberating in a way that I think is incredibly valuable. Is it scary? Oh yeah, I worry every day, especially when he’s not at diabetes camp. So we’ll get to it.
I do want to bring up a couple of quick points. Before we get started. I’m going to try to get a blog post out about this this week. Sometime. I’m a little behind on things. But I’m hoping to put that out because we cover a lot of issues in this Roundtable. But one thing we didn’t really mention is the question of when is my kid ready to go to regular camp. This varies kid to kid various camp to camp. I think that if your child is able to check his or her own blood sugar, you know, with a meter not just looking at a CGM, because cgms can fail. And they do need to know how to check their blood sugar. If your child can administer insulin with his or her pump, if your child can change a pump, inset, and do all these things with supervision, I don’t expect you know, eight 9, 10 year olds, 11 12, 13 year olds even depending on the kid to be able to do all these things perfectly. If they can do all that with some supervision, then I think you’re at a good starting point. And the other question is of the camp itself. Are they willing to learn? Do you feel comfortable with the staff their medical or not, and their knowledge? You know, if you’re sending a 14 year old to scout camp, you might feel comfortable that the scout leader knows how to administer glucagon and could call 911. If you’re sending an eight year old, you may want to have a camp with more medical knowledge so they can recognize highs and lows and help with giving shots if needed. You know, that kind of thing. It all depends on many, many different factors. But these are important questions to ask yourself. We’re going to go through with a round table I’m going to come back after with a couple of things that I think we missed that I want to make sure to mention.
But first Diabetes Connections is brought to you by Gvoke Hypopen and you know that low blood sugar feels horrible. You can get shaky and sweaty or even feel like you’re going to pass out. There are a lot of symptoms and they can be different for everyone. I’m so glad we have a different option to treat very low blood sugar Gvoke Hypopen is the first auto injector to treat very low blood sugar. Gvoke Hypopen is pre mixed and ready to go with no visible needle. Before Gvoke people needed to go through a lot of steps to get glucagon treatments ready to be used. This made emergency situations even more challenging and stressful. This is so much better. I’m grateful we have it on hand. Find out more go to Diabetes connections.com and click on the Gvoke logo. g evoke shouldn’t be used in patients with pheochromocytoma or insulinoma visit Gvoke glucagon dot com slash risk.
My guests this week love camp just as much as I do. Shelby Hughes lives with type one herself. Her daughter Caroline was diagnosed at age seven. She is now 11. She’s the youngest of Shelby’s three children. And Caroline went to diabetes camp and a regular camp and you will hear all about that. April Blackwell joins me as well. She lives with type 1 diabetes. She was diagnosed as a kid and she went to space camp and was then a counselor at Space Camp. Now you probably recognize April’s name. We’ve talked to her before. And, gosh, I’m always all starstruck talking to her. She works at NASA. She has her dream job she says of flying the International Space Station for mission control. So she was kind enough, right that she was kind enough to come on and talk to me about camp this week, which was just absolutely amazing. So April, thank you so much for that. But I think her perspective is really valuable. And I hope you enjoy this whole conversation. So I am really pleased to welcome Shelby Hughes and April plaque. Well, we are going to talk about camp. Ladies, thank you so much for being here.
Shelby Huges 6:51
Thank you for having us.
Stacey Simms 6:53
I think we are all in agreement here that camp is cool camp is, great campus really good for kids. And for parents. So she’ll be telling me about your, you know, when you decided to send your child to camp, how old she was, what kind of Camp it was, how long.
Shelby Hughes 7:08
So the first year that Caroline went to camp was before she was diagnosed diabetes. And I know it seems early, but the camp where my older two children had gone was you know, not a lengthy stay camp is about five nights, six days, and it was a church camp. But it was within, you know, reasonable driving distance from our house. And they offered a starter camp, the year that Caroline finished first grade. And it was a maybe a four night five day situation. So we sent her to that. And she had such a great experience. And so that just was on our radar like she was I just feel like camp is super important for all kids. So you know, we wanted to get her started as early as possible.
Stacey Simms 8:02
When she was then diagnosed with type one, did you hesitate sending her back.
Shelby Hughes 8:06
Now, um, I think she she was diagnosed in the middle of her second grade year. And the only hesitation was I was worried that the camp wouldn’t accommodate her and would say no, she can’t come we can’t deal with that. So that was our only issue. And when we got in touch with the camp director, and she said no problem. You know, we’ll we’ll work it out. We were We were all ready to go.
Stacey Simms 8:33
Wow, that’s great. All right, and we’ll get into the details of what we had to we all have to do for those accommodations. And for us as parents to be able to just be able to sleep through the night ourselves when our kids are at camp. April. Tell me a little bit about your camp experience. How old were you when you went to camp? And did you have type one at the time already?
April Blackwell 8:54
Yeah, so I I have always with my nerdy persona, but I did go one summer I did a back to back space camp in California when that was still open. And the next week I went to diabetes, to very like different, you know, scenarios for a person with diabetes. And this was only about a year or so after my diagnosis. So I was still doing injections. I didn’t have any basically no technology at all back in the dark ages. So I think in some ways that helps maybe because my parents weren’t used to getting, you know, share data all day long. And so it sort of put that independence on me to you know, take care and manage my diabetes on my own. And I think that was a big step for me personally, just because I wanted to be like everyone else and have sleep overs and go to camp and stuff. So it was a big motivator for me to take my diabetes. He’s on myself.
Stacey Simms 10:01
And I’m sorry, did you say how old you were when you went to that camp?
April Blackwell 10:04
I think I was like around 12 or 13.
Stacey Simms 10:07
Okay. Did you go back to diabetes camp? Did you go back to regular camp?
April Blackwell 10:13
I, I never went back to those two camps. Actually, I did some other like church camps and stuff. But my summers just seem to get really busy. So it was hard to fit in those other camps.
Stacey Simms 10:25
Yeah, that’s the tough age. When she gets to be about 14. I think there’s so much going on. Right? It’s hard. And our camp experience, which I’ve shared before is that my daughter, like you, Shelby, my daughter went to this camp, my older child is three years older than Benny, and had a great time and would come home every summer and say, I can’t wait for you to go. And I’d be like, there’s no way he’s going. And we were very fortunate, in my opinion, because it helped me, I don’t know about Benny, but he was going to diabetes camp. And he was able to go when he was seven. So he went for a week to diabetes camp. And then the next summer, he went to diabetes camp for a week, and then his regular camp for two weeks. And I say we were lucky because it got me used to the idea of him being away understanding what needed to be done, even. And we’ll get into this later, even adjusting basil rates for activity and things like that. But he went for two weeks when he was eight. We did not have share yet because it wasn’t even around. And he just had his deck. No Did you have a Dexcom that first year he did not have a Dexcom that first year it was fingerstick only. And then the next year he had share he had Dexcom no share. And that next year at age nine, he went for a month and he has gone for a month every year since except for COVID. And this year, the camp is going to Israel for a month. That’s the age group where they go to Israel. So we are dealing with a totally different in my opinion environment. To him, it’s the same thing. But that’s a different episode. So that’s our summer camp experience. And it has been it has not been perfect Far from it. But it has been I think one of the seminal experiences of his childhood, and is certainly influenced him in a great way and given him a lot of confidence and independence. given me a lot of sleepless nights. Alright, Shelby, let me start with you, when your daughter was was going back to camp she was they were familiar with her, they knew what were some things that you talked to them about, to kind of get things, you know, set her up for success. Was there anything that you did at the time or learned since that made it a little easier for her and for the staff.
Shelby Hughes 12:28
So um, one of the things, they did have a full time nurse, which was great. And the nurse was very willing to be trained on all things pump related and CGM related. And she at the time had the Medtronic 670 g, which automatically adjusts her basil rate, as long as she’s an auto mode. So I figured that would make things a little easier than people wouldn’t have to be fooling with our pump, adjusting rates and whatnot. And also, I got, the director got me in touch with the cafeteria staff with the head of the dining hall. And she was fantastic. She sent me a list of everything that they were going to be serving every meal for the entire time. So that gave me the opportunity to, you know, give them some carb counts. So they were very willing to work with me in terms of, you know, figuring out what she was going to eat and and what the carb counts were.
Stacey Simms 13:34
April, I know, it was kind of a different time, as you said, you went you say no technology, but you had shots and you had your meter, which is tech. Did anybody help you? I mean, at 12, you probably were okay. But I would always assume that there might be a little supervision or kind of over the shoulder. Are you doing all right? Do you remember how it was handled? What you did?
Right back to April answering that question. But first Diabetes Connections is brought to you by Dario. And over the years, I find we manage diabetes better when we’re thinking less about all the stuff of diabetes tasks. And that’s why I love partnering with people who take the load off on things like ordering supplies, so I can really focus on Benny, the Daario diabetes success plan is all about you. All the strips and lancets you need delivered to your door, one on one coaching so you can meet your milestones, weekly insights into your trends with suggestions for you on how to succeed, get the diabetes management plan that works with you and for you. Dario is published Studies demonstrate high impact clinical results, find out more go to my dario.com forward slash Diabetes Connections. Now back to April answering my question of what her camp did to kind of help keep her on track.
April Blackwell 14:49
Yes, so this is actually something I think is really great about space camp. To the point that it inspired me to become a counselor while I was in college, but they’re just You know, a very, they have everything planned out and under control as you would maybe expect space camp to have. So we had if you’re familiar with Star Trek, we had a sick bay. That was it was just part of the camp experience. And even though Space Camp isn’t necessarily geared towards kids with health conditions, it became just a seamless part of the whole camp experience. So, you know, every before every meal, the whole group would just swing by sickbay. And anyone who needed to take meds or like me check my blood sugar, take a shot, we just go into like they Well, everyone else was playing kickball or something, you know, for a few minutes. And it, it was awesome, because it didn’t make you feel singled out at all. And it was just part of the whole camp experience. So I think that’s a really great feeling as a kid. And it allows you to have that moment with the nurse or doctor to have sort of a one on one conversation about any sort of dosing Delta’s that you should incorporate for upcoming activities.
Stacey Simms 16:11
She’ll be did your kiddo have a similar experience like that? Did they do anything?
Shelby Hughes 16:16
That was kind of the same thing. There were other kids that took meds before meals, and they would kind of divert to the nurse’s clinic. And she would, I think, I don’t think she would take her insulin before meals that I think that the nurse would check her blood sugar, make sure her you know, everything was good with their pump. And then after, after dinner, I think she would, she would head by there and the nurse would would help her figure out how much to put in her pump.
Stacey Simms 16:48
It was really reassuring to me, I remember starting to kind of plan this in January of the year he when when he went in, you know, July or August or whenever it was, and calling the medical people and saying how are we going to do this, you know, at eight years old, I need eyes on him to make sure that he’s changing his pump site to make sure that his insulin cartridge is full, you know, trust but verify you’re very independent, good kid, but still eight years old, you know, you’re not gonna let him walk around camp by himself all the time doing everything. So she laughed and said, Oh, that whole cabin goes gets medication. That age, you know, and you forget that there are other kids with issues go into camp. And what we we didn’t have to work it out at all. Because that cabin and not everybody, but you know, a bunch of the kids in that cabin would get in a golf cart. This is a very large camp, get on a golf cart, and go up to the infirmary, which I’m going to suggest which should be Star Trek themed as sick. But they would go to the infirmary every night. And so when he was eight, that very first year, what we decided was, he’d go up with them every night, and they would physically look at the pump, and make sure that it was an animist pump. So had a battery, no charge, but they would check the battery, they would check that it had insulin, at least for the night, that his pump site, you know, they kind of kept track was changed every three days or whatever. And it just made me feel better that they had eyes on him. And it made them feel better, as well, something we added in the next couple of years, as I realized that, frankly, they weren’t on top of the site changes as much as I thought they would be because they trusted Benny, who’s a very wonderful kid, but isn’t going to change his instead of three days, unless somebody is reminding him, let’s face it. So what we did was at meals at most camps, they have meds in the dining hall, because a lot of kids have to take medications with food, at least at our camp to have a table. So I said, Why don’t you just bring the inset every three days and pretend it’s like an antibiotic or an ADHD medication, like write it down. And then every three days here, let’s watch you change it. And he loved it because he truly had did not have to think about it at all. And that really helped once we started incorporating it more as a regular kind of medication thing. It made a lot more sense for everybody. And it took us I don’t want to say three years before we thought about one of the things that I always like to think about is I want to make it easy on the camp. And I’m curious April, if your parents I know it’s kind of a different time or whatever. It wasn’t that long ago. Did your parents talk to them ahead of time or try to figure out ways to make it easier on them or do any education of the staff?
April Blackwell 19:18
Yeah, definitely. I know they were in contact with the the nurses group at their at Space Camp, before we even signed up to go to camp to make sure it was something feasible because you need to get your hopes up about going into camp and then you know have to do a detour. So that was really important and also our our endocrinologists, our pediatric and it was so good with this stuff. So they had you know, these resource papers to be able to give to the nurses topics to talk about while you’re there checking in how to like set up all your supplies and have backup supplies and So I, I know my parents use those resources and share those resources with the nurses. They’re at Space Camp.
Stacey Simms 20:08
You know, I meant to ask, one of the things that I get asked a lot is how does your child carry supplies around camp? I’d be curious to know, April and again, I’ll start with you. How did you do it? obviously different technology. Did you carry stuff everywhere you went? Did you have a central location.
April Blackwell 20:25
So the space camp in California was pretty small. So we, we had everything centrally located at the nurse’s station. When I was a counselor at Space Camp in Huntsville, Alabama. It was a bigger facility. And the part that I was actually a counselor at was a little ways away from where the nurse’s station was. So if we had any kids with issues that would potentially need immediate attention, we just carried like a little backpack with us and had their supplies with us all the time. Sometimes we’d be out in the woods or swimming or you know, doing some other activities. So we just like every counselor carried a little backpack and we had our own stuff, but also our our camper stuff in there, too.
Stacey Simms 21:12
Yeah, that’s great. How about you Shelby? Did your daughter carry stuff?
Shelby Hughes 21:15
She did. She had a little like a little sling back, you know, backpack where she just kept water and glucose tablets. She didn’t carry major things like sight changes or insulin. That was all in the nurse’s station. But yeah, just just emergency things.
Stacey Simms 21:37
We sent Benny with a Camelback, you know, the kind of backpack that you have water in. And that worked out well, for a couple years. Then he was like, yeah, forget it, just taking the sling bag. He liked to have inserts. Because the pool for a while was notorious. We did find some stuff that worked. Everybody’s skin is different. And this is not an endorsement and it’s not a paid endorsement. But I will endorse a state put medical patches has been the only thing that works for him. And like I said, everybody’s skin is different. But for a long time he carried in sets just because the pool was such a pain for him. But also, you have to have reasonable expectations. I know you all are wonderful and your children are super responsible. But Benny got Viggo. He’s gonna like best camper or over silly awards, at the end in their cabin. And he got like most likely to leave your bag everywhere. And they were always bringing him his bag. You know, it’s just ridiculous. But as he got older, he got better at that. And you know, you do have to have your stuff with you. And now I don’t know, it seems like everybody, all these teenagers carry bags, diabetes or not. They always have stuff with them, even the guy so it’s not a big deal anymore. As much as I’m interested in your experience, too, as a counselor, what kind of things do you think set a camper up for success? And listen, when I’m talking about success, I don’t mean that their blood sugar is 95 the whole time they’re a camp, right? You’re gonna go up, you’re gonna go down, you’re gonna have wonky numbers. But I mean, like they’re able to have a good time with minimal interruptions. They’re able to leave with confidence. Is there anything that kind of goes through your mind, as I say those things? Yeah, I
April Blackwell 23:09
think preparation is key. And not just logistically the supplies and the directions for the nurse. But actually practicing being away from your parents or whoever helps you manage your diabetes for some shorter period of time. And probably very dependent on the kid too. But just maybe spending the night at grandma’s house or friend’s house for a night or two, and seeing how everything works and how it goes. And it’s also, I think, a little preparation for the parents. Because in my experience as a counselor, you know, even though I had diabetes, and I did have a couple campers that had diabetes, as well, you know, their parents would stay in a hotel that was close to site, even though most campers flew there to go to space camp, but their parents would stay in a hotel, they would check on him every night or at some time during the day. You know, they may even give them injections or boluses. They had one who sort of like pre loaded their kid before bed with a bunch of pudding. Because they always went low overnight, which to me sounds like maybe we should change some other settings. But that’s not my call to make so right. You know, as counselors, we we need to just respect the wishes of the parents I think is really important. And so, I don’t know if you know, having that practice beforehand, for both both sides of it, the camper and the parents, I think is a good idea beforehand.
Stacey Simms 24:47
Yeah, man, it’s gonna be hard to do nothing and then go to a week or two weeks away if your kids never been out of the house or you shouldn’t say it like that if your kids never spent an overnight somewhere. That’s a great bit of advice. Shelby Any thoughts? I mean, is a bunch of questions there. But, you know, kind of to set up for success. Was there anything that you’ve learned over those years that your daughter was at this camp?
Shelby Hughes 25:09
Um, you know, I didn’t think about it. But yeah, I think having them spend the night out before you, you know, shut them off for a week or more is good. Unfortunately, we had had some opportunities for Caroline to have sleep overs preceding the camp experience, so that that was good. And they weren’t perfect. But you know, I think the goal is just to stay alive. And we’re good.
Stacey Simms 25:39
We have a similar sense of humor to Shelby and I. So I know, I know, you have a sense of humor to April. It’s just right. I mean, you know, we hate to be blunt, but you know that that’s what everybody’s scared of. Right? When you’re sending your child off, and they they are fine, they are fine. They are
Shelby Hughes 25:57
now looking looking at CGM data after she came back from Camp, and I was horrified to see that she was, you know, running high throughout the night, we figured out later it was they were giving her like those Lara bars, Richard 25 carbs, you know, before bed, so, of course, she was running high all night, but you know, it was fine. She she had a good time, and she was alive. And that was what that was what mattered.
Stacey Simms 26:31
And I think this is a really good time to talk about expectations. Right? And, and what what are your goals for your child with diabetes going to a regular camp, and I’ll kind of take an opportunity to speak on that, you know, if your goal is going to be that your child stay in a very tight range, you’re going to set yourself up for disappointment most of the time. Now, some kids are rock stars, and for whatever reason, you know, they’re they’re able to do this, some camps are going to help you with that. But I always tell parents, you know, camp is not the time to worry about that. Incredible a one see that you’re going to run and post on social media, but you shouldn’t be doing anyway. Campus, the time for your child to learn about themselves, to stretch the limits, to push to make mistakes, to to figure out who they are when they’re not at home. And the flip side of that is for you to figure out who the heck you are without your kids around. It is a gift and a full month. And I’m not an endocrinologist. So ask your doctor a full month at a slightly higher time in range right or slightly, excuse me slightly lower time and range a slightly higher blood sugar average, balanced with the incredible life experience that your kid is going to get is worth it. It’s not you know, we’re not talking about kids running at 300 for a month, if that’s happening, you need to adjust things you need to I’ll talk about checking in and things like that. But I know I’m in a bit of a soapbox here. But I really believe that giving Benny the opportunity to make mistakes and to learn at camp. And you know, I’ll be I’ll be very open because I know people tiptoe around this. You know, his agencies throughout his whole life have been fine. Sometimes they’ve been great. They’ve been amazing. Sometimes they’ve been minor. But a camp has average blood sugar was usually and this is over seven or eight years, anywhere between like 150 and 200. Sometimes I think one year is he came home and it was like 220. And that’s when we realized we also need to make some changes, the hormones were insane. And we need to pour like gallons of insulin on him. Some of you heard that and are calling Child Protective Services. Right? You think I’m the worst? I am the world’s worst diabetes. Mom. Some of you heard that and say, Oh my God, that’s doable. I can I can live with that. You’ve got to figure this out. Because if you think you’re going to send you if you think you’re going to send your child to diabetes camp, and they’re going to be 83 the whole time. They’re there. You are in for disappointment. All right. I’ll get off the soapbox. April. I saw you nodding. I’m not a terrible parent. Right?
April Blackwell 29:07
Absolutely. And my kids aren’t quite old enough to send to camp yet there are only two and five. Oh, gosh, I’m not quite to the center camp age yet. But you know, they have spent nights away at grandma and grandpa’s house before so even even though they don’t have diabetes, you know, the worry still creeps in and, you know, making sure there’s instructions or you know, times was really important to me for my first hit. And now with a second I’m like, whatever, you know, just have fun. Like, hopefully they get a nap in there at some point. Yes. So I imagine with diabetes, it’s still very, you know, maybe amped up a little bit just because there are, you know, real consequences eventually for for numbers. But, you know, I think that’s important to realize and kind of pull back that You know, when you’re looking at how much a kid can gain from a camp experience, you just you can’t put a number, even a blood sugar number on that. So as long as they’re safe and healthy, I think it’s an absolutely necessary experience.
Unknown Speaker 30:17
Wow. How about you, Shelby?
Shelby Hughes 30:21
Well, I was going to talk to the fact that at diabetes camp, which she also went to that same summer, that first year she went to non diabetes camp, she probably her her blood sugar was probably a lot higher at diabetes camp, because they’re, they’re more, I guess, more cautious about them being too low. So she told me, they would check her blood sugar and say, Oh, you’re 150 here have a snack.
Unknown Speaker 30:51
Shelby Hughes 30:53
And we really we joke about that now, like, she’ll say, Oh, I’m at 150. I should have a snack. But I can’t remember the question. What am
Stacey Simms 31:02
Oh, that’s okay. Um, and I think that’s a good just quickly, I think this is really good to talk about context. Right? Because 150 at diabetes camp, have a snack. Makes sense. There are dozens of kids there. They are doing lots of activities. They are trying to keep everybody safe. They probably you know, at the time, I know every campus kind of trying to keep up here. Nobody’s monitoring everybody’s CGM. Right, so it’s totally different setup. But when you’re at home, 150 have a snack is funny. Because you know, she doesn’t need it. Right. The question was the balance of running a little higher and being okay with that at camp?
Shelby Hughes 31:40
Oh, absolutely. You know, I think camp is, I guess, because I went to summer camp for a month, every year when I was a kid from the time I was nine till I was 15. And it shaped who I am today, I would not be the same person. If I had not had overnight camp experience. And I see my kids friends that don’t go away to camp. And now they’re 18. And they’re state date. Some of them struggle with going away to college. And I feel like if they’ve gone to summer camp, they might be doing a little bit better. So I guess that’s, I’m a, I’m a huge fan of sleepaway camp, you know, no matter what. So I agree, running a little bit higher to have that life experience is definitely worth it.
Stacey Simms 32:34
One thing I want to make sure to mention, I talked about this towards the beginning of our little roundtable here, and I wanted to circle back to it was adjusting basal rates, because when your diabetes camp, you know, they’ll send you home with the form of we adjusted everything. Usually they knock the kid down 10 to 15% less basil, because it’s so active. But by the time diabetes camp was over, Benny usually was getting 25% less insulin because they were so active. And it’s really hilly, and they do lots of swimming, and there’s hiking all this stuff. So what we would do is use that as a baseline for, you know, regular camp, I loved it, because it was like a great test for that week. And then he’d go for the month, we found regular this regular camp to be even more intense than diabetes camp. So we were always adjusting. And one of the things we did we put in place in the second year and going forward was, I would check in three days after he was there. They would call me if there was anything to deal with before that, they would call me three days in. And then every Sunday, we would have a check in. And usually the check in was like I need deodorant or stamp serve is ridiculous. It was never It was almost never about diabetes. But it was a good way for me to check in and say Do we need to adjust basil? Is everything going? Okay, how our supplies looking? That kind of stuff. So I know that she’ll be your daughter was at Camp a little bit less time. But did you talk to them about when to call you or checking in on anything like that?
Shelby Hughes 33:58
The first year she went, we didn’t have any scheduled check ins. It was such a short period of time, but the nurse was really, really great and would text me and just say, you know, everything’s looking good. She changed her site today. And, you know, just just a brief, you know, let let mom know that things are things are okay. We didn’t, you know, we didn’t really have the need to do any formal. Any. And there were no times that we really needed to make adjustments because the the time there was so short.
Stacey Simms 34:29
April, I want to ask you about that kind of as a counselor on the other end, because you would be the one getting the phone call. I’m not gonna ask you as you said, You’ve got to listen to what the parents want. So I’m not asking to make a judgment call here. But what was helpful that the parents that some parents did that you would recommend, was there anything that they did that you’d say yes, that’s a good one.
April Blackwell 34:51
I think preparing beforehand and being ready to talk to the counselor. I know every camp is a little different and how we did it at base camp was each team would have two counselors. So like a morning and afternoon, evening, and having a face to face with the person who’s going to be next to your kid for eight or nine hours a day or more, I think is really important. And you know, it also kind of calibrates the counselor with how serious this could be, things to watch out for, because they may not be that familiar with it. You know, when when to call the nurse, because even that may be a little bit foreign. If you’re not familiar, maybe specific signs your child has for going low or going high or times to check on them. I think that face to face time is really important if you’re if you’re able to do it. So I know my parents did that with my counselor. When I went to space camp, I remember them sitting down and talking to her face to face. And I did it with several of my campers as well. So I think it’s really important.
Stacey Simms 35:59
That is that’s really good. One of the things that I also like to talk about is there are very few non negotiables for me, when I send Benny to camp or my daughter for that matter, but I do have one. And this is the kind of thing where I tell the camp upfront look, you know, things are gonna happen. diabetes can be wonky. Usually Benny can troubleshoot you don’t have to call me. And like most camps, they’re gonna call you for kids running a fever, or you know, anything happens. anything out of the ordinary. But my non negotiable has always been if he throws up more than once in 24 hours, they must call me because more than Lowe’s overnight, which I know most people are terrified. I’m not that worried about Lowe’s overnight. You know, it’s it’s rare that those are actually emergencies. And Benny always sleeps at camp with a, you know, a drink by his side or glucose tabs by his side, which I should have mentioned up front. This is I’m getting off topic here. But one of the best things we did for both my kids was we found these next two bunk shelves. They’re like fabric shelves or you know, bunk bed shelves. There’s all sorts of different kinds of just, you bring them to camping and shove them into the bed. And then they had a little shelf next to them. So when Benny goes on sleep overs, I don’t even think he does anymore. He’s 16. And it’s a different world for him. But when he was younger, he always had a Gatorade next time it’s sleep over. So if you woke up and felt weird, our rule is drink the Gatorade, then check your blood sugar. And that’s not how we do it at home. It’s like the 150 have a snack. I would never say drink 25 carbs before he checked your blood sugar. But at a sleepaway camp, just do it and check and we can figure it out later. And he does the same thing at camp. But I’m worried about highs, I worried about dehydration, I worried about them not really knowing if he was high, because nobody was following him on Dexcom. They looked at his blood sugar when he was younger. So I was terrified of decay and things like that. Never happened never got close. But that was my one non negotiable. And that’ll be my non negotiable for this summer, too. Do you all have anything like that? April, I’ll start with you. You know,
April Blackwell 38:02
I don’t know that my parents ever did just because I didn’t physically have any symptoms like that outside the camp. And I think that really dictated what they discussed with the nurse and the counselors there. So I know that I did carry glucose tablets, those like really gross square ones that are in like, packaging. I don’t even know if they have those anymore. But I remember sticking those in my I even got special shorts for when I went to space camp that were like cargo shorts. So they had extra pockets for the Yeah, but I don’t remember them saying any specific symptoms like that. To the staff there.
Stacey Simms 38:43
Did and I should have asked you this earlier. Did anybody have to supervise you? I mean, at 12? You were probably independent enough, but I’m just curious, do you remember if anybody like watched you do injections or your meter over your shoulder or anything like that?
April Blackwell 38:57
I just checked my blood sugar at the nurse’s station. So the nurse or sickbay? The nurse always did. You know, look at the number I assume she you know, processed that and and thought about the injection I was giving if it made sense. But no, I don’t remember anyone supervising me really close? Yeah,
Stacey Simms 39:20
I think that’s just kid age, you know, appropriate different stuff. You know, I don’t think anybody really watches Benny anymore. But when he was eight, the I know, they looked over his shoulder. They didn’t know what they were looking for. You know, I tried to give as much education as I could. But yeah, that’s
April Blackwell 39:35
a good distinction, actually. Because, you know, at Space Camp when I was a counselor, we had kids from age seven all the way to 18. And you’ve definitely treated each age group differently and looked for different things. And it was even a different sort of mindset for the counselors. You know, if you were a counselor for the younger age group, you usually just work with the younger age group. And it was different set of counselors that worked with older age groups. So yeah, you kind of just get you trained yourself on what seven and eight year olds need from a counselor, which is more like a mothering thing than what 17 and 18 year olds?
Stacey Simms 40:14
I mean, at that age, you’re still like, are you using soap in the shower? Like, you know, there’s all sorts of different things that poor counselors have to do shall be saved, you have to have a non negotiable or anything like that. Um,
Shelby Hughes 40:26
you know, it’s funny, because I got, I think, kind of a set of directions from you before I sent Caroline to camp that you had, you gave me like a draft of what you had given to Ben? Oh, yeah. And so I can’t remember if there was anything in there that was you know, about vomiting. Okay, so I must have had that in there. But I don’t remember, particularly going over that with the nurse or with the counselor. Just because it’s, it’s honestly, it’s not ever we’ve not ever had an issue. vomiting is never caused any kind of a of a problem for us. So, and back then I was still new. So I really probably wasn’t even on my radar. Yeah, let now there there were no non negotiables. But now thinking back maybe there should have been fun. You know,
Stacey Simms 41:22
I think it’s all a question too, of trusting the medical staff and you had already had kids go through that. So like I said, they’re going to call they called me, you know, for my daughter hit her head on the side of the pool. They call you for the he’s got a rash they call generally, they’re going to call you for those things. And we’ve where I got a knock wood or something Benny’s never had even large ketones maybe once or twice in 14 years, he’s never had vomiting associated with dehydration or things like that. Knock on wood. We’ve never had that problem. But for some reason that stuck in my mind is something like, Uh huh. This is going to be the thing that happens at camp. And you know, I am I’m kind of Cavalier and I make jokes, and I worry a lot. Right? You, you can’t help it, you still send them. But and I think that’s just a mom thing. I mean, April, your kids are too little for camp, and they don’t have diabetes. But you’ve got to worry a little when you send people to grandma’s house. That’s just mom stuff.
April Blackwell 42:21
Exactly. Yep. Absolutely.
Stacey Simms 42:23
Yeah. And mentioning the the forums, Shelby, I forgot that I did that, you know, I have these like, they’re nothing. It’s nothing that you can download. It’s nothing formal. Shelby and I have known each other a long time. So I just sent her my stuff. But one thing that was very helpful if your endo is on board with this, we typed up kind of an action plan. And I’ll look at it and make a note at the end of this episode, or in the show notes. It wasn’t super detailed. It was kind of more if this, then that, like Benny will do this. And we hope you’ll support with that or like really insets to the med table or go into sick beta, check your blood sugar, those kinds of things are written out. And then we had our endo sign it. Now, my endo, God love him will pretty much sign anything I give him at this point, right? I mean, it’s been 14 years, he knows we’re okay. I’m not going to give him anything crazy. He would tell me if he thought it was off base. But this was fantastic. Because the magic words are always my doctor says. And if the camp sees that the endo has signed off on this plan. Not only are they going to probably follow it more closely, they’re going to be much more reassured. Because a medical professional has looked at it. So I found that to be I forgot all about that Shelby, thanks for bringing that up. I found that to be really good. And I did that my kids went to day camp to and Benny went to you know, regular day camp. And that was super helpful for them. And we’re actually doing to get in for Israel. You know, and my endo will Cyrus endo will sign off on it. So that’s pretty good.
April Blackwell 43:50
I was just gonna say I think using your endo as a resource can be really helpful because if it’s a local camp, they may have other kids in the in the practice that are going or have gone and have tips for interacting with the staff there. You know, the internet is also a great place to look up some Reddit forums on certain camps and see what’s going on. And, you know, there’s other diabetes specific forums to ask questions about specific camps and if you are able to talk to a parent that is sent a kid to a specific camp i think that’s that’s worth a lot, actually. Because Yeah, inside scoop, so
Stacey Simms 44:30
definitely. And it’s funny with our camp we had there were two kids who are already at that camp during the current time with type one and one of them did not want anyone else to know. He, I think that’s a very tough way to go. We respected it. My daughter knew she was her age at the older group, and we respected it and nobody, you know, did anything. But I think that to me, I would be extremely uncomfortable sending my child to camp with him wanting to keep his diabetes a secret from as many people as possible, because you never know who is going to need to help. And another one of my, I would call it a non negotiable but I think a kid who’s going to sleepaway camp who’s got type one should know how to check his or her own blood sugar using a meter. Because things happen, even if you’re Dexcom, you know, all over 24 seven, gotta know how to do your meter, got to know how to use your pump, gotta know how to change your own insets even if there’s help there. And and I think you have to be a kid who’s gonna raise your hand and ask for help. And that’s something that you can teach. But you’ve also got to know your kid will do. And I see everybody nodding Shelby, was that something that you either you knew your kid would do? Or you had you thought about that?
Shelby Hughes 45:44
Well, Caroline’s pretty responsible. I mean, I’m not gonna say 100% compliant, you know, she still forgets to bolus and she’s, you know, she’s 11 now, and she’s independent at school. And still, she’ll forget to balls for lunch, and, you know, whatever. But I felt like she was responsible enough to do those things. She, she, she knew how to check her blood sugar. I taught her how to change her sights. She doesn’t probably her biggest issue is asking for help, because she does not want to seem different. And she doesn’t want to call attention to herself. She just choose a shy kid. She does not like calling attention to herself about anything, including diabetes. But I think that if she really needed help, she would speak up.
April Blackwell 46:38
You know, I don’t have a kid with diabetes myself. So it’s a little bit hard for me to say, but I think it would be something great to tell the counselor when you meet with them, and just say, hey, like, they’re not gonna tell you when they need help. I know, I actually experienced that myself. I remember actually, the moment we pulled up to diabetes camp and got off the bus and there was like a, everyone check their blood sugar moment, and my blood sugar was in the 40s. Just because I was like, so overwhelmed about going to camp with all these diabetics that I had never been around that many people a day. And she was like, do you feel low? And I was like, Yeah. Like, it was just, it was like, almost out of body experience. So camp itself can kind of maybe mask those, you know, symptoms or times when someone would feel comfortable speaking up, just being overwhelmed at being at camp and being excited about it could change a little bit. So it’s it’s something good to bring up with the counselor. I think
Stacey Simms 47:41
I do, too. We also had the counselors kind of check on him every night. And it wasn’t Benny is your diabetes. Okay, what’s going on? like we talked about it so that he would just say, Benny, are you okay? Like, Benny? Are you set? And what that meant was? Is your pump charged? Does your pump have insulin in it? Is your blood sugar? Like, are you feeling okay? Do you need me for anything? And so it didn’t become this big conversation every night. But I still felt and I you know, again, I see you guys know, I say all the time about Benny, he’s a great kid, and he’s doing really well. But you know, he forgets he’s staying down. He will wake up at two in the morning. Oh, my pumps, no charge, you know, things like that. So to set him up for success, we really felt like having the counselors involved, but not overly, you know, in his face about diabetes was very helpful. I don’t know what really went on. This is my fantasy of what I think happened to camp I’m not sure because they tell me these things happen. But you know, Ben, he’s gonna turn 25 and write his own book and it’s gonna be like, nothing happened the way you thought I shouldn’t say that. Like, that’s terrible to put in people’s
Unknown Speaker 48:42
but I do have you know, I
Stacey Simms 48:43
have my doubts that my perfect systems are executed perfectly.
Shelby Hughes 48:49
Alright, before I let you all go, is there anything you want to say any good stuff about camp anything we missed? You know, nothing, nothing earth shattering but after two years of regular camp, and two years of diabetes camp, and then of course last year, there were no pants. She was we before COVID she had made the decision that she only wanted to go to diabetes camp. I think and I and I we respected that. You know, she and I asked her why and she said I just don’t like being the only one there with diabetes. So of course this summer now you know, everything’s up in the air. The the one camp that we are looking at is now going to a modified sleepaway. Maybe I don’t even know so I think we’re just gonna skip camps all together this year, too, which is so unfortunate because she’s getting to be the age where she won’t want to get a camp when she’s older anyway, but that’s it. She just she she prefers diabetes camp now because she’s not singled out. Cool.
Stacey Simms 49:57
April, any last words?
April Blackwell 50:00
I would just say one thing to watch out for is even if a camp generically allows or supports people at type 1 diabetes to come, there may be certain activities that are still restricted. I know at Space Camp, for instance, the older kids were allowed to go scuba diving in our underwater astronaut trainer. But that was not allowed if you had type 1 diabetes. So I guess, you know, think about kind of the activities that are going to happen at camp. And that’s going to somehow negatively affect your your T one DS sort of mental state on that, because I think it would have for me, you know, being that singled out, not just check your blood sugar, but you can’t do this activity. So be sure to think about that. And then the other thing is just, probably your kid’s gonna be fine. And if they run into any problems, it’s probably not even diabetes related. It’s like, you know, they have a problem with this friend, or, you know, they’re homesick or they’re missing their dog or something. So keep that in mind that there’s a lot more to kids than diabetes.
Stacey Simms 51:08
Wow. And you know, that’s such a great point about the scuba, because there usually is an alternative. For big time adventure stuff. There isn’t always so it’s good to check. But I’ll give another example. Two years ago, gosh, I can’t believe how much time has gone by the big activity for Benny’s age group at this camp included like this cave thing. And I don’t know why it was cave swimming. I don’t remember. But it was tiny spaces. And the way they described it like I wanted to, I wanted to throw up just because forget diabetes. I was so claustrophobic thinking about it. But my daughter had done it. Because she went to this camp. And we talked about it. And I was super uncomfortable. Like I let him do anything. But like holy cow, if you get stuck in a cave, like Oh, just type one. You know, they were they didn’t say anything to me. I we didn’t get that forward. I even asked them I asked Benny. And he was like mom, no way. I just sounds like a hassle for everybody. And he just didn’t like the idea of it. So we really dodged that bullet. But there was an alternative program for any kid who didn’t want to do it. Because it’s it really was kind of scary sounding. And so that was great. But if you were you know, and the alternative program wasn’t playing cards in the, you know, inside, it was doing another outside fun activity. But that’s a great idea to check because there are there are going to sometimes be limitations, especially at camps that do not cater to people with type one who don’t have all the facilities and all the knowledge. And we have to learn sometimes that there’s there’s going to have to be an alternative. There’s going to have to be an adjustment that we in our children have to make. Does it stink? Yeah. But sometimes I think it’s the price you pay for an overall wonderful life lesson and experience. Later, ladies, thank you. Thank you. Thank you so much for joining me. I really appreciate your time to share your experiences. It was so great. And I shall be I hope camp. Hope diabetes camp happens. or different things, you know, go this summer, but but keep us posted.
Shelby Hughes 52:59
All right. Thanks for having me.
Unknown Speaker 53:01
Oh my gosh, thank you all. Alright, thanks, Stacy.
Stacey Simms 53:10
Lots more to share. I’m going to talk about food, carb counting glucagon training, and share and follow at sleepaway camp. In just a moment. I want to add a couple of things to the end of this episode. But first Diabetes Connections is brought to you by Dexcom. And one of the most common questions I get is about helping children become more independent. These transitional times are tricky elementary to middle middle to high school. I mean, you know what I mean? Using the Dexcom really makes a big difference. For us. It is not all about sharing follow, although that is very helpful. Think about how much easier it is for a middle schooler to just look at their Dexcom rather than do four to five finger sticks at school, or for a second grader to just show their care team the number before Jim. At one point Benny was up to 10 finger sticks a day and not having to do that makes his management a lot easier for him. It’s a lot easier to spot the trends and use the technology to give your kids more independence. Find out more at Diabetes connections.com and click on the Dexcom logo.
Little bit more about camp and some tips and tricks that we learned along the way. Shelby mentioned the menu. I did this as well, I got the menu from Camp. And most camps know what they’re serving every single day or they have you know, very even if they don’t have a strict menu, they know the foods that they will be serving. So go ahead and ask for that. I broke it all down. I made a calendar is like a stamp that I laminated it, but let me close enough. I think they use it for the first year or two. But Benny found it was much easier to just guesstimate on carbs. I mean, he’s that kind of kid. They were comfortable with him doing it. And one of the things that we started doing because honestly most camps serve very high carb foods. Think about what camp foods are going to be for kids, right you’re you’re serving them. food to sometimes hundreds of kids, some of these camps are very big. So it’s gonna be quick and cheaper and full of carbs. So what I had him start doing was as soon as you walk into the dining hall, give yourself 25 carbs, you know, you’re getting 25 carbs, and then do the rest after. And that really helped him at least get started. So he wasn’t going that much higher than he would have, you know, after a big breakfast or things like that. That was very helpful. It is never going to be an exact science at these camps. Some places will have a helper. I know some parents have been very lucky. And they have a counselor who will sit or you know, a staff member who will swing by Ben, he hated that the first year, he had to show them what he was eating. And I didn’t think about how difficult that would be, especially for a kid who likes to eat, and is on the bigger side. He got some blowback. And that was actually not a great decision that we made. I’m not sure I would do that again. You know, if you wanted second helpings, a lot of times he got an eyebrow raised at him. Luckily, he’s a pretty confident cool kid. We talked about it, he shook it off, and he ate what he wanted to, but, but we had some blowback on that, that I had to discuss with them at at the end of the summer. We learned they learned it was it was a good experience all around. But just a heads up that those kind of things can happen.
glucagon training. This is another non negotiable. I didn’t mention it. But I think this is really important. The newer glucagons, Baqsimi, Gvoke Hypopen that I talked about, make this much easier. But I did the red box training, you know, those of you who were diagnosed, gosh, it’s really only a year or two that those products have been out. So those of you diagnosed two, three years ago, know what I mean, you take the red box out, and you have to teach everybody how to swirl don’t shake, you know how to inject that needle. It’s much easier now. But I think it’s important to talk to the camp about who would who would administer that. And we decided it would not be his counselor. The counselors in the cabin are all connected to the infirmary. And somebody is on call 24 seven, so they would walkie talkie. And what we decided was if they felt felt they needed it, they would call the infirmary to come down. And they could be there in less than five minutes. I mean, it was really something that we felt good about. I think with vaccine me now and hypo Penn, whichever you choose, I would be fine with a counselor doing it. I just figured with the red box stuff. Everybody messes that up. I mean, so many studies show that most people even more trained, don’t do it correctly. So I kind of stopped training people on it, which is why I legitimately Yes, it’s a commercial. But I’m so glad to have alternatives. Because it’s not safe not to train people on that and never had to use it. But that’s another non negotiable.
And let’s just talk for a minute about share and follow. Sometimes the decision is made for you on this because there’s no Wi Fi or cell signal at camp. Benny’s camp is in the middle, we call it the middle of the middle of nowhere. Wi Fi service is terrible cell service is pretty much non existent. Another carrier has a better luck there. You know Verizon is okay. But we have at&t that sort of thing. The first year he went to camp, he didn’t even have Dexcom. As I mentioned, the next year he didn’t have share. So by the time he was going back to camp for the third year, I was like, I’m not gonna use shared camp, it wasn’t even a concern. It wasn’t even a thought. And I get a lot of parents who look at me like I’m absolutely bananas for not sharing. So here’s what I have to say about that. I actually think it’s better overall, if you can let your child go to camp without the share and follow. Now, you’ve got to talk to the counselors about the beeping, you know, Benny had his receiver, always next to him in bed. And what that means if he’s beeping overnight, right, if he’s low, and it’s urgent, low goes off, they’ve got to make sure he’s okay. But they’re in a cabin together. They don’t need to remote monitor him. They’re in the same room with him. So they’re gonna hear that beeping. So I always felt okay about that.
And then we use the T slim pump. So the CGM is right on the pump. So you don’t need the receiver anymore. But I did a talk about camp earlier this year. And I had a mom and I didn’t I don’t think about this, because we don’t use Omnipod. She said, I have to use the phone. We don’t have a receiver. Our camp has a policy, no screens, no screens, even a phone is a screen. So I immediately was thinking how is she going to do this. And I think I would rather have my child who is used to using Dexcom. Use the technology, you don’t have to take the Dexcom away, right. So use the phone as the receiver because the Bluetooth will still work, haven’t put it on airplane mode or whatever. But the Bluetooth will still work in the phone, the alarms will still go off, talk to the camp about, hey, she’s not playing games, they’re not taking photos, make sure your kid is following the rules. If you don’t have a receiver, and the phone is all you’ve got, I think that that is better and more realistic than expecting a child who’s used a Dexcom either since day one, or for a couple of years to go back to finger sticks. You’re just not going to get the results that you want. I mean, let’s be real. As I said in that commercial, I just said you know you’re not going to do the middle schoolers not going to do the finger sticks if they’ve got the Dexcom Why would they do So those kind of accommodations can really help.
But in terms of the parents following along, here’s the question, if the camp lets you do this, and you think it’s vitally important, you guys have to set up a plan with camp. If it’s 2am, and the low alarm goes off, Who are you calling? What are you doing? Right? Who are you alerting, they already know, they’re already on it. And if you want to double check, pay, that’s your prerogative as a parent, if the camp agrees to it. You just have to have a plan. I would not know who to call, I guess I would call the infirmary. And I couldn’t call the cabin, you have to kind of figure out those things. And I know we’re getting really long. But just one more quick thing.
I have seen this happen at our local diabetes camp. If your child uses non FDA approved technology, you nightscout folks know what I’m talking about you openaps people, I see you out there, you have to have a conversation with the diabetes camp, about whether they will be allowed to use it. Now, this is years old of this conversation. So most diabetes camps have settled it. I talked to a mom who loops with Omni pod, which is not FDA approved right now about what to disclose to her regular summer camp. Isn’t that an interesting question? It’s not FDA approved. But she’s sending them there with the loop. Because it’s better, she gets better control, then the Omnipod by itself. So, you know, my advice was to kind of explain it to them, you’d have to go into all the details about you know, big red flashing light, this is FDA, this is not FDA approved, blah, blah, blah. But I thought that was a really interesting question. Maybe we’ll put that in our survey this week. Or I’ll ask in the Facebook group, you know, how much do you disclose to people who don’t really understand and don’t need to really understand, you know, she she needs to know that if the Reilly link craps out or gets wet, you know, that kind of thing at camp, she has to have a plan B. And I think that’s fine. But man, you know, the Do It Yourself crowd is fantastic. You know, I love you. But when you’ve got people who have liability issues because they’re taking care of your kids, I’d be interested in hearing some of those stories and how you’ve done it and maneuvered and made everybody comfortable. Okay, well, thanks for sticking around.
thank you as always to my editor John Bukenas from audio editing solutions. Thank you for listening. We’ve got a classic episode coming up in just a couple of days. Advice for taking diabetes, to Disney to Disney World and Disneyland because those vacations are unlike many others, and they’re very expensive. So how do you do it? We’ll talk about it. I’m Stacey Simms. I’ll see you back here in just a couple of days. Until then, be kind to yourself.
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